[SR] Karma costs for raising skills

[Gurth]

In my campaign, which uses essentially a mixture of SRII and SR3 rules plus a
lot of house rules, something recently came up about raising skills using
karma. The thing is that concentrations and specializations (or, in SR3, just
specializations) very much work against you if you have them. Somehow, this
never came up over 30 years of playing this game, but now it bugs me and I’m
looking for a reasonable solution that sticks close to the original rules :)

The BTB rule is that raising the general skill doesn’t raise
concentrations/specializations along with it — so if you have, say, Athletics
(Climbing) at 3 (5), then you need to spend 4 × 2 = 8 good karma to raise
that to 4 (5).

However, if you start out with _just_ Athletics 3, and then take a Climbing
at 4 and raise it to 5, followed by raising the skill to Athletics (Climbing)
4 (5) as above, you will actually spend (4 + 5) × 1.5 + 4 × 2 = 21 karma
(since fractions are rounded down).

All fine and dandy. BUT: if you start with Athletics 3, then you could have
the _whole_ skill at 5 for just 18 karma, saving you three points _and_ being
better allround than if you buy Climbing separately first.

That is to say, concentrations and/or specializations (depending on your
edition of choice) seem to be a reasonably good choice when making a
character, to get more effective at the things you can do out of the starting
blocks. However, they're a very poor choice for a character spending good
karma, because if you later increase the general skill, you’ve wasted
everything you spent to get the concentration/specialization to the rating
that the general skill is now.

We thought we had a fix: if you have a concentration in a skill, spending the
karma for raising the general skill will also raise concentrations etc., but
also allow the choice of raising only the general skill by spending (new
rating × .5) karma — that is, the difference between raising the general
skill and raising a concentration. That _looks_ like it’s a good solution,
until you run some numbers:

* 3 (5) to 4 (6) is 4 × 2 = 8 karma
* 3 (5) to 4 (5) is 4 × .5 = 2 karma
* 3 (5) to 3 (6) is 6 × 1.5 = 9 karma

IMHO, the problem there is the difference between the first and the last: by
increasing the skill as a whole, you gain _more_ yet spend a point less
karma. This gets a lot worse with higher relative ratings:

* 3 (10) to 3 (11) is 10 × 1.5 = 15 karma
* 3 (10) to 4 (11) is 4 × 2 = 8 karma …

That doesn’t work, if you ask me. This way, it’s pretty much always cheaper
to raise both at once than to raise just the specialization, and the greater
the difference in ratings, the worse this gets.

And all of this mess gets even worse if you have more than one concentration
or specialization …


I can’t think of a good way to fix any of this, other than to ignore it by
sticking to the original rules. If so, my conclusion is that it’s always
better after character creation to not bother with concentrations or
specializations at all, but save your karma for a bit longer so you can raise
the general skill instead.

Thoughts and ideas would be very welcome :)

--
***@xs4all.nl - http://www.understairs.nl | www.plasticwarriors.org
Dat is zoveel beter dan domweg gelukkig zijn
-> Fearless Leader of shadowrn.understairs.nl * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998 <-

[Graht]

Post by Gurth
In my campaign, which uses essentially a mixture of SRII and SR3 rules plus
a lot of house rules, something recently came up about raising skills using
karma. The thing is that concentrations and specializations (or, in SR3, just
specializations) very much work against you if you have them. Somehow, this
never came up over 30 years of playing this game, but now it bugs me and I’m
looking for a reasonable solution that sticks close to the original rules :)
The BTB rule is that raising the general skill doesn’t raise
concentrations/specializations along with it — so if you have, say, Athletics
(Climbing) at 3 (5), then you need to spend 4 × 2 = 8 good karma to raise
that to 4 (5).
However, if you start out with _just_ Athletics 3, and then take a Climbing
at 4 and raise it to 5, followed by raising the skill to Athletics (Climbing)
4 (5) as above, you will actually spend (4 + 5) × 1.5 + 4 × 2 = 21 karma
(since fractions are rounded down).
All fine and dandy. BUT: if you start with Athletics 3, then you could have
the _whole_ skill at 5 for just 18 karma, saving you three points _and_ being
better allround than if you buy Climbing separately first.

And this is where the problem is: the cost of raising the base skill is too
cheap compared to the cost of increasing the specialization.

A simple fix would be to increase the multiplier of raising the base skill,
say from New Level x2 to New Level x3.

--
-David

[Gurth]

Post by Graht
And this is where the problem is: the cost of raising the base skill
is too cheap compared to the cost of increasing the specialization.

That thought had occurred to me too :)

Post by Graht
A simple fix would be to increase the multiplier of raising the base skill,
say from New Level x2 to New Level x3.

I think I would probably go the other way round: reduce the costs of
concentrations and specializations. This keeps characters able to increase
their general skills at the rate that karma awards are geared to. Probably
to concentrations at ×1 and specializations at ×.5, those numbers might work
better. However, that gets into minor problems with things like language
skills, which for some reason have always been cheaper to increase. Chuck
that cost reduction, maybe, because it also feels strange that you can learn
a language in less time than, say, driving a car.

--
***@xs4all.nl - http://www.understairs.nl | www.plasticwarriors.org
Dat is zoveel beter dan domweg gelukkig zijn
-> Fearless Leader of shadowrn.understairs.nl * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998 <-

[Monique de Valois]

You could introduce the SR4 method: specialisations are a flat +2 on the base
skill, and rise automatically with them. Of course, that makes them quite
cheap at higher skill levels, so you may want to consider the cost of
acquiring a specialisation post-chargen, but it otherwise solves the problem.

Post by Gurth
In my campaign, which uses essentially a mixture of SRII and SR3 rules plus a
lot of house rules, something recently came up about raising skills using
karma. The thing is that concentrations and specializations (or, in SR3, just
specializations) very much work against you if you have them. Somehow, this
never came up over 30 years of playing this game, but now it bugs me and I’m
looking for a reasonable solution that sticks close to the original rules :)
The BTB rule is that raising the general skill doesn’t raise
concentrations/specializations along with it — so if you have, say, Athletics
(Climbing) at 3 (5), then you need to spend 4 × 2 = 8 good karma to raise
that to 4 (5).
However, if you start out with _just_ Athletics 3, and then take a Climbing
at 4 and raise it to 5, followed by raising the skill to Athletics (Climbing)
4 (5) as above, you will actually spend (4 + 5) × 1.5 + 4 × 2 = 21 karma
(since fractions are rounded down).
All fine and dandy. BUT: if you start with Athletics 3, then you could have
the _whole_ skill at 5 for just 18 karma, saving you three points _and_ being
better allround than if you buy Climbing separately first.
That is to say, concentrations and/or specializations (depending on your
edition of choice) seem to be a reasonably good choice when making a
character, to get more effective at the things you can do out of the starting
blocks. However, they're a very poor choice for a character spending good
karma, because if you later increase the general skill, you’ve wasted
everything you spent to get the concentration/specialization to the rating
that the general skill is now.
We thought we had a fix: if you have a concentration in a skill, spending the
karma for raising the general skill will also raise concentrations etc., but
also allow the choice of raising only the general skill by spending (new
rating × .5) karma — that is, the difference between raising the general
skill and raising a concentration. That _looks_ like it’s a good solution,
* 3 (5) to 4 (6) is 4 × 2 = 8 karma
* 3 (5) to 4 (5) is 4 × .5 = 2 karma
* 3 (5) to 3 (6) is 6 × 1.5 = 9 karma
IMHO, the problem there is the difference between the first and the last: by
increasing the skill as a whole, you gain _more_ yet spend a point less
* 3 (10) to 3 (11) is 10 × 1.5 = 15 karma
* 3 (10) to 4 (11) is 4 × 2 = 8 karma …
That doesn’t work, if you ask me. This way, it’s pretty much always cheaper
to raise both at once than to raise just the specialization, and the greater
the difference in ratings, the worse this gets.
And all of this mess gets even worse if you have more than one concentration
or specialization …
I can’t think of a good way to fix any of this, other than to ignore it by
sticking to the original rules. If so, my conclusion is that it’s always
better after character creation to not bother with concentrations or
specializations at all, but save your karma for a bit longer so you can raise
the general skill instead.
Thoughts and ideas would be very welcome :)
--
Dat is zoveel beter dan domweg gelukkig zijn
-> Fearless Leader of shadowrn.understairs.nl * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998 <-

[Gurth]

Op 2 sep. 2023, om 21:41 heeft Monique de Valois

Post by Monique de Valois
You could introduce the SR4 method: specialisations are a flat +2 on the
base skill, and rise automatically with them. Of course, that makes them
quite cheap at higher skill levels, so you may want to consider the cost
of acquiring a specialisation post-chargen, but it otherwise solves the
problem.

It would, but at the cost of the greater flexibility the the SR1/II/3 way
gives. That SR4 removed a lot of options was one of the reasons why I’ve
always kept using the earlier rules :)

--
***@xs4all.nl - http://www.understairs.nl | www.plasticwarriors.org
Dat is zoveel beter dan domweg gelukkig zijn
-> Fearless Leader of shadowrn.understairs.nl * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998 <-

[Ubiquitous]

Post by Gurth
In my campaign, which uses essentially a mixture of SRII and SR3 rules plus a
lot of house rules, something recently came up about raising skills using
karma. The thing is that concentrations and specializations (or, in SR3, just
specializations) very much work against you if you have them. Somehow, this
never came up over 30 years of playing this game, but now it bugs me and I’m
looking for a reasonable solution that sticks close to the original rules :)
The BTB rule is that raising the general skill doesn’t raise
concentrations/specializations along with it — so if you have, say, Athletics
(Climbing) at 3 (5), then you need to spend 4 × 2 = 8 good karma to raise
that to 4 (5).
However, if you start out with _just_ Athletics 3, and then take a Climbing
at 4 and raise it to 5, followed by raising the skill to Athletics (Climbing)
4 (5) as above, you will actually spend (4 + 5) × 1.5 + 4 × 2 = 21 karma
(since fractions are rounded down).
All fine and dandy. BUT: if you start with Athletics 3, then you could have
the _whole_ skill at 5 for just 18 karma, saving you three points _and_ being
better allround than if you buy Climbing separately first.
That is to say, concentrations and/or specializations (depending on your
edition of choice) seem to be a reasonably good choice when making a
character, to get more effective at the things you can do out of the starting
blocks. However, they're a very poor choice for a character spending good
karma, because if you later increase the general skill, you’ve wasted
everything you spent to get the concentration/specialization to the rating
that the general skill is now.
We thought we had a fix: if you have a concentration in a skill, spending the
karma for raising the general skill will also raise concentrations etc., but
also allow the choice of raising only the general skill by spending (new
rating × .5) karma — that is, the difference between raising the general
skill and raising a concentration. That _looks_ like it’s a good solution,
* 3 (5) to 4 (6) is 4 × 2 = 8 karma
* 3 (5) to 4 (5) is 4 × .5 = 2 karma
* 3 (5) to 3 (6) is 6 × 1.5 = 9 karma
IMHO, the problem there is the difference between the first and the last: by
increasing the skill as a whole, you gain _more_ yet spend a point less
* 3 (10) to 3 (11) is 10 × 1.5 = 15 karma
* 3 (10) to 4 (11) is 4 × 2 = 8 karma …
That doesn’t work, if you ask me. This way, it’s pretty much always cheaper
to raise both at once than to raise just the specialization, and the greater
the difference in ratings, the worse this gets.
And all of this mess gets even worse if you have more than one concentration
or specialization …
I can’t think of a good way to fix any of this, other than to ignore it by
sticking to the original rules. If so, my conclusion is that it’s always
better after character creation to not bother with concentrations or
specializations at all, but save your karma for a bit longer so you can raise
the general skill instead.
Thoughts and ideas would be very welcome :)

I always thought it wasn't worth starting with a concentration or
specialization at chargen, but my players who were super min-maxers would
make starting chars with Firearms(Pistol: Sliver pistol) 8 and it annoyed
the hell out me.

--
Let's go Brandon!